Opinion: Be considerate to those who do not use Thee, Thou, Thine and Thy.
When I first joined the church, I learned that prayer works. I learned that we could talk to God as one person talks to another and that he can and does communicate with us as well. Almost 2 years later, I went to the MTC and while there, I was taught that good LDS people say thee, thou, thine, and thy in their prayers. (Not in any sort of negative way, merely in that it was innocuously mentioned that I should use thee,thou, thine, and thy in prayer). I personally found that this detracted from my prayers. I spent too much time thinking about what I was saying and whether I was saying the right things. This took away some of my ability to listen to the spirit, and from the ability to feel any sort of closeness to God. It emphasized God’s “Otherness” and made him feel farther away. Also, it emphasized what I was saying, rather than what I was listening for.
Making matters worse, as a new member, if I ignored this prescription, as it wasn’t working for me, it felt more like something was wrong with me, or I felt guilty because I was “breaking rules”. It labeled me “heterodox” to be outside the norm. So I kept at it, even though it made me feel farther from God. Making matters worse, it bothered me enough that I stopped using sentences which required the use of “You” or “Thee” in them, and so for a while, I was limiting my capacity to pray.
Over time, I have both grown more comfortable saying thee, thou, thine, and thy, as well as more comfortable not feeling heterodox if I do not use those words in prayer, as I have come to realize this linguistic effect is meaningless. I find myself saying “We are thankful for”, rather than “we thank thee” or “thank you for” as this is how my mind apparently has resolved the issue.
Which brings me to my point, it is my opinion that using the words thee, thou, thine and thy are merely a cultural affectation, and are spiritually unnecessary. Furthermore, they can cause unnecessary struggles for those who are converts to the church, creating an unnecessary additional barrier to entry into the family of the church, and in communication with God.
I am not asking members to stop saying thee, thou, thine, and thy, as I realize they are “used to it” and so being asked to not say thee, thou, thine and thy would make them feel a lot like I felt, all those years ago, when I was asked to use thee, thou, thine, and thy. That is not what I want at all. I am asking that we leave more room for you and your not being merely some juvenile form of prayer.
That’s my Opinion. Your Mileage may vary.
I use thee and thine when I pray in public and I feel comfortable using this. In personal prayer I use you and your because that is between me and Father in heaven. I find that more and more people are usung you and your in public prayer. The problem with thee and thou besides the fact that no one speaks that way is that people get the grammatical constructs all wrong. I am all for modernizing language when it comes to sacred things. Even D&C uses a more modern version of English tna does the Book of Mormon.
Comment by Andy Hardwick — September 20, 2011 @ 4:47 am
Of course, you can also just not use any pronouns at all…
Comment by Ben S — September 20, 2011 @ 4:47 am
Question Please: How do you feel when listening to a prayer? Do you feel a difference in how the Spirit is felt if the speaker is less formal?
I’m thinking of an important prayer such as a priesthood blessing, or a confirmation blessing and the like. (verses say an opening and closing prayer in a church meeting)
In my case, I have never considered this situation. I suppose I am more formal in my own prayers when the need for prayer is more important. Less formal if the need is more common or a repetitive type, like asking for a son on a mission or serving in the military to be safe.
That make sense…sorta?
::Hope you dont mind me butting in again::
Comment by Pog Warden — September 20, 2011 @ 5:54 am
Great post! I started a tread on this in MD&D: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55716-thee-thou-thine/
Comment by Brad — September 20, 2011 @ 6:36 am
The times when I’ve heard converts use “you” instead of “thee” in public prayer has been a powerful experience for me. It sounded like they were really talking to God instead of sounding formulaic. So I totally agree and wish we would stop this practice, but I’ve been too chicken to use “you” in public prayer.
Comment by Steve Fleming — September 20, 2011 @ 7:32 am
I think most other languages use the informal ‘you.’ When I finally got used to my mission language, I loved how personal, close, and touching prayers seemed, much more so than I’d ever experienced either in my own personal prayers or in church settings. I have hope that with time this cultural artifact will drift into mormon history.
Comment by geoffsn — September 20, 2011 @ 7:40 am
Matt: I canst not understandeth how thou couldest find difficulty using proper pronouns whenst speaking in prayer. Surely if thou wast guidethed by the Spirit thou wouldst instinctively get all conjugations correct.
Comment by BrianJ — September 20, 2011 @ 8:07 am
Has anyone here read this explanation found at LDS.org?
Comment by R. Gary — September 20, 2011 @ 8:15 am
Personally I don’t worry about it. However I think if you are reading your scriptures, especially the Bible, you naturally pick up the language anyway.
Comment by Clark — September 20, 2011 @ 8:18 am
Andy (1)- Interesting, I’ll have to Look at the D&C vs the BoM regarding the grammer.
Ben S (2)- As I said in the post, I find myself saying things like “I am thankful for” rather than “we thank thee for”, so yes.
Pog(3)- I honestly don’t think about it when I am listening to prayer. At the time I was struggling with it (9 years ago) I found myself and the other guys in my district talking analyzing usage in prayers in the MTC. I didn’t like that, because it felt judgmental and wrong, so I didn’t continue it. Sorry, this is a pretty poor answer.
Steve (4) and geoffsn(5)- Thanks
BrianJ (6)- Yea Verily Yea.
R. Gary (7)- Actually, that was what I read in the MTC which gave me all the trouble which lead me to write this post. I honor and revere Dallin H. Oaks as an apostle, and would follow him wherever he would lead me. That of course, does not mean I can’t present here my personal experiences and thoughts.
Clark (8)- I think you do pick up the language over time, but for the reasons outlined in my post, think that it adds an unnecessary burden to say you have to.
Comment by Matt W. — September 20, 2011 @ 9:05 am
Standing ovation….
Amen, Matt. I’m with you–and in my opinion this is an important post.
Comment by Clean Cut — September 20, 2011 @ 9:16 am
There’s a bit of a logic problem.
*The Church teaches that God is our loving Father, and we should view Him as we do our loving earthly parents, and speak to him with such candor.
*Out of respect, we should therefore use archaic English pronouns when we talk to God.
*It follows, therefore, that we should use archaic English pronouns to talk to our own earthly parents.
Do you know any Mormons who use archaic English to speak to their close, intimate earthly family members, or who would associate archaic english with how you talk to family? There’s a serious disconnect here…
Comment by David T — September 20, 2011 @ 9:27 am
I call my mom “Mother” which felt very archaic when I was a teenager. But she wanted me to.
Comment by jks — September 20, 2011 @ 9:54 am
R Gary, 8: Like Matt, I’ve read that article. Numerous times.
I grew up hindering my prayers with archaic language, but when I finally matured in the Gospel I threw off the yokes and artificial barriers that stifled my prayers and honestly poured out my soul to God—and as it just so happens, when my soul is pouring out, it speaks modern English. (Intriguingly, when the Spirit speaks to me, he also speaks in my native tongue; i.e., modern English.)
Clark, 9: That’s true a lot but not all of the time. Many verbs that I use in prayer just aren’t ever used in the scriptures. Thus, I am and will always be at a loss for how to use them in prayer, forcing me to stumble and grope for different wording that uses a “proper” verb, or to switch into contraband pronouns, or commit the cardinal sin of pronoun/verb disagreement. (None of which would be a problem if I took Oaks’ recommendations to their extreme: only use words in prayer that I have also read in the scriptures.)
Comment by BrianJ — September 20, 2011 @ 10:44 am
BrianJ (14) your comment reminded me of when I met Richard G. Scott and Henry B. Eyring on my mission and they said that people feel the spirit best in their native language, so we as missionaries needed to speak their native language.
Comment by Matt W. — September 20, 2011 @ 10:57 am
I think the “thee, thou, thine” tradition is pretty much on par with other Mormon traditions: White shirts, sacrament with the right hand, saying the word “opportunity” as many times as possible during prayers and talks… (Ok I kid about that last one).
Anyway, I certainly don’t think God cares about these things in and of themselves. But these traditions do serve as tribal markers for us. They are a way of saying “I’m an insider” to one another so they serve as useful cultural binding methods.
Comment by Geoff J — September 20, 2011 @ 1:20 pm
Geoff (16)- I can see that, but often these same markers serve to say “you’re an outsider” when they needlessly shouldn’t. ie- binding markers are only useful when they bind in everyone we want bound in, otherwise we are just creating cliques.
Comment by Matt W. — September 20, 2011 @ 1:31 pm
Matt W. (#10), it is no longer about Dallin H. Oaks. Currently, the entire First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve have unitedly asked that English speaking members “use the pronouns Thee, Thy, Thine, and Thou when addressing Heavenly Father.” (Handbook 2, 2010, 18.5.)
Matt W. (#14), Richard G. Scott and Henry B. Eyring have both given their approval to Handbook 2. Therefore, it seems likely that you misunderstood their meaning. That is, unless the “native language” you refer to in your comment was English. Just for reference, here is the complete paragraph from Handbook 2:
I’m sure the Lord hears and answers all prayers. But out of respect for Him, members of His Church should be trying to learn what His Church calls “the special language of prayer.” (op. cit.)
Comment by R. Gary — September 20, 2011 @ 1:36 pm
I suspect that most of us using the archaic pronouns are simply mimicking the traditions of our fathers rather than showing any particular respect.
I’ve always found it odd that a religion so fond of eschewing rote prayers gets so hung up on thee, thou, thy, and thine.
Comment by Peter LLC — September 20, 2011 @ 2:35 pm
R. Gary- to be clear. I am not saying that there isn’t such a rule given by the leadership of the church. I am saying “Dear Leadership of the church, please rethink that rule. It creates these problems. I think these problems outweigh the benefits.”
I am adhering to the rule to the best of my ability. I still to this day avoid saying pronouns in prayer or use thee, thou, thy and thine as requested. However, it was a little thing I struggled with at one point in my conversion process, and so I bring it up. Does that help clarify where I am coming from?
Comment by Matt W. — September 20, 2011 @ 2:49 pm
R. Gary- Maybe you are right. Maybe if I have an issue with a statement in the handbook, I shouldn’t publicly post it, but should go via some other channel, e-mail my bishop, ask him to send it up the chain to my stake president, etc.
As such, I am changing my OP slightly. I hope this meets with you approval.
Comment by Matt W. — September 20, 2011 @ 2:52 pm
R Gary, 18: It’s comforting to see that I agree wholeheartedly and unreservedly with the First Presidency’s stated principle: “The principle, however, is the same: members should pray in words that speakers of the language associate with love, respect, reverence, and closeness.”
It’s only in the specific example where I disagree: “In English, for example, members should use the pronouns Thee, Thy, Thine, and Thou when addressing Heavenly Father.”
Unless, of course, they meant a narrow definition of “English.” As I’ve tried to indicate here, I speak modern American English, not Elizabethan, or Middle, etc.
Since the English I speak does not even contain the words “Thee, Thy, Thine,” nor “Thou,” I won’t worry about their use. (Unless, of course, at those times when I need to translate from a foreign tongue into my native tongue, such as when I read the King James Version of the Bible and must translate it into modern English.)
Peter, 19: “I’ve always found it odd that a religion so fond of eschewing rote prayers gets so hung up on thee, thou, thy, and thine.”
Interesting irony indeed.
Comment by BrianJ — September 20, 2011 @ 2:53 pm
(Side question: “…speakers of the language associate with love, respect, reverence, and closeness.” Does anyone know if this is always even possible? I took one semester of Japanese, but I seem to remember that it would not be possible to simultaneously express both closeness and reverence using the same words because they are mutually exclusive linguistically.)
Comment by BrianJ — September 20, 2011 @ 2:58 pm
As a recovering Mormon and present and future Episcopalian, I feel just as close to God when our Eucharist service is using Rite II of the Book of Common Prayer (contemporary language) as it is using Rite I (traditional languauge). Getting hung up on which versions of pronouns to use really misses the point on communing with God…but since some members of my former church seem to be more concerned with style over substance, it is not surprising that the continued logical fallacy of appealing to authority is comforting to those with certain retrograde views.
Comment by Phouchg — September 20, 2011 @ 3:40 pm
My wife, who was raised in the a small, secluded Mormon community in Wyoming called Cokeville almost always prays with the pronoun “you”. I, coming from the entrenched land of Farmington Utah, thought it strange that she hadn’t caught on to our reverential prayer vocabulary with such an upbringing.
After some time I thought about correcting her. But then it hit me: I was so distracted by how she wasn’t saying it that I missed what she was saying, and conversely, what I suppose to be saying “amen” to. I often wonder how many thoughts and hopes she had that I wasn’t able to unite my faith with because of my zealous adherence to a tradition.
Now, never use the word “you” in my prayer, but I will admit that it doesn’t make a bit of sense to me. I do it probably out of tradition and loyalty to the leaders who have spoken on the matter, but other than that I cannot honestly find a rational reason that God requires/prefers archaic English pronouns. If, like some have mentioned here, it is a greater sign of love, respect and reverence why not require all human beings to learn to pray in this form of English? It just seems odd to me that God has decided that out of the hundreds of human languages English is the one he has special rules for.
Comment by Riley — September 20, 2011 @ 9:43 pm
R. Gary, I love you brother, but your bloggernacle persona represents everything I hate about Mormonism.
Matt, your post is both spot on and very measured, no need to soften it. To misunderstand the post, your kind tone, your genuine concern, and your charitable intent requires effort. I would have been less diplomatic. The statement from Handbook 2 is a valiant effort to make our policy seem like it is based on a principal when it clearly, obviously is not.
Comment by Jacob J — September 20, 2011 @ 10:19 pm
Of course the simple work-around is to fire up an occasional Thee or Thou in public prayers at church (to satisfy the Church Lady types) and then speak like a sane modern person in your personal and family prayers.
If a convert is going to be put off by Mormonism there are much more annoying/weird things about us than this.
Comment by Geoff J — September 21, 2011 @ 1:17 am
R. Gary’s source in #8 is a talk by Dallin H. Oaks delivered in April 1993. Just for fun I looked up the German version to see how the translators dealt with the “special language of prayer.”
I don’t know how the interpreters handled it when the talk was originally broadcast, but the print version has the luxury of being able to preface with:
They then dutifully provide the KJV/BoM/D&C eqvuialents in parentheses to illustrate the point Oaks is trying to make:
As the special language of prayer gets more convoluted, even more of the English original is provided:
I hope the Church has become sufficiently international since 1993 that we won’t see 20 minutes of future General Conferences devoted to the words English speakers should be using to pray.
If Oaks, the Handbook or anyone else wants emphasise (and I use the British spelling here to convey a certain gravitas that is unfortunately lacking in the plainer and less sophisticated AE) love, respect, reverence, and closeness in our communications with deity, who would complain? Surely only the basest Philistines.
But when the pulpit insists that four English-specific pronouns do this better than any others, it’s distracting at best, both to the uninitiated English-speaking converts and the rest of the world who are trying to draw closer to God with or without a command of archaic English.
I know Oaks knows this, which makes his prescription of the “prophetic model of the language of prayer” [See also: “We have scriptural record of three beautiful translated prayers the Savior offered during his earthly ministry. They are models for all of us.”] all the more baffling: this is no universal principle–this is a preference for the familiarity of Mormon scriptural traditions.
Comment by Peter LLC — September 21, 2011 @ 2:05 am
Geoff (26) very true! I actually hesitated in posting this because on the one hand it seems so trivial. But on the other hand, it seems so simple to fix…
Comment by Matt W. — September 21, 2011 @ 8:36 am
Matt, PLEASE do not change a thing. Your response to R. Gary was sufficient. The handbooks have changed in the past and they can change again in the future.
I also appreciate BrianJ’s point in that I don’t disagree with the principle of praying in language we associate with love and closeness. I disagree with the example that using “Thee” and “Thou” and “Thine” represent the principle. They’re not foreign to me, since I was raised in the Church, but disagree that they help me be “closer” to God in prayer. I actually feel they put a foreign distance between us, and thus, I’ve stopped caring so much about their usage.
Comment by Clean Cut — September 21, 2011 @ 8:41 am
““In English, for example, members should use the pronouns Thee, Thy, Thine, and Thou when addressing Heavenly Father.””
On what basis do we decide that this is “the special language of prayer”in English?
If it’s just tradition, it’s a misunderstanding of tradition. If linguistic/semantics, it’s a misunderstanding of those.
Comment by Ben S — September 21, 2011 @ 9:23 am
I have to echo Jacob’s sentiments with one caveat. R. Gary’s internet persona represents everything I hate about Mormon culture. It’s the cultural emphasis on trivialities, appearances, and transients that drive me crazy and make me actually worry that our leadership, who promulgate and perpetuate the culture, are beginning to drive the Church into apostasy. I’m not accusing anyone of anything but I see a lot of parallels between our time today and the culture the ancient Paul fought so fiercely to eradicate during his time. A bit ironic given what we’ve been studying the past couple months during GD classes.
Comment by PaulM — September 21, 2011 @ 11:07 am
Matt (10) I just don’t hear people emphasizing it much anymore. Whereas it used to be done a lot. I actually am really sympathetic to the idea of having a different language to help “bring one out of the world.” I personally think my praying has become too causal and I’ve been thinking the past weeks that this is a problem I need to address.
It’s funny as I sometimes use the elizabethan language in my prayers instinctually just because, well I think it comes out of reading the scriptures. However the more sincere or intense I am in my prayers the less I use them. It’s interesting.
Brian (14), I think that having to conjugate the second person informal form of all verbs is pushing that guidance beyond what even the authors intended. I think the idea is just to make a separation between our lives and prayer so we pay more attention to praying. It’s not that uncommon. You can find ancient text that use more archaic language at times following a similar strategy. (I think it pops up in the Dead Sea Scrolls as well) Of course one can go too far – think how Latin was used in Catholicism even past the point anyone understood latin.
Comment by Clark — September 21, 2011 @ 11:29 am
Ben (30), what do you mean by it being a misunderstanding of tradition?
Comment by Clark — September 21, 2011 @ 11:39 am
Given that prayer is probably the most intimate, yet difficult spiritual exercise I engage in, it’s quite odd that someone would presume to tell me what kinds of pronouns to use while doing it.
Like others who learned foreign languages, I instantly appreciated the superior intimacy in prayer language once I learned the Spanish informal tú on my mission.
Also, I want to “ditto” those who have raised the point about emphasis on cultural trivialities and rules of no consequence. Why is it not enough to simply teach the principles of prayer?
Comment by Trevor — September 21, 2011 @ 6:42 pm
Clark: “I think that having to conjugate the second person informal form of all verbs is pushing that guidance beyond what even the authors intended.”
Maybe so. I really have no idea. But I find it a huge distraction to conjugate some verbs correctly and not others, etc.—not when others are praying, just when I am the one ‘acting as voice.’ That’s why I gave it up: too much of a distraction.
Comment by BrianJ — September 22, 2011 @ 1:03 am
LOL. Heck, I have trouble making sure I conjugate everything in the language I *do* speak. My pseudo-elizabethan voice definitely doesn’t get it right.
Comment by Clark — September 22, 2011 @ 1:23 pm
I like using thouspeak because it is LESS formal and more poetic. I feel like I can finally let my guard down with Him.
However, when I am truly pouring my heart out in prayer, I usually don’t use any words at all.
Comment by SilverRain — September 22, 2011 @ 1:30 pm
Just wanted to say that this was a great post and I wholly support your opinion.
Comment by Kate McKay — September 22, 2011 @ 7:10 pm
Thanks for this post. As someone who grew up using “you” in prayer, this has made praying with LDS people really uncomfortable for me since it feels false to me to use “thou” but I feel judged when I use “you”. Last time I went to RS there was a talk about how “when Heavenly Father hears his children call him ‘you’ it hurts his heart.”
It also just makes no sense to me. “Thee” and “thou” and the like used to actually be an informal way to address someone and outside the LDS world it is simply not true that it has come to signify reverence and respect. Then even if that were true, why is it necessary for English speakers to use that kind of language but for speakers of other languages to use the informal version of “you”?
So yeah, for someone new to the Church there are certainly weirder things about Mormonism, but since prayer comes up so much, adjusting to this can actually be a big issue.
Comment by Kate — September 22, 2011 @ 9:21 pm
Kate, it’s not just Mormonism. It used to be a feature of much of conservative Protestantism. Although with the rise of a certain strain of Evangelicalism since the 60’s (especially with its growth in the 80’s and 90’s) we’re one of the few left to feel this way.
Part of the problem is our connection to the KJV Bible whereas most of Protestantism has moved away from it. I’d suspect we’d have as well were it not for our other scriptures semi-aping the language of the KJV, for quotations or pseudo-quotations from the KJV, and for theological jargon that only makes sense in reference to the KJV.
I honestly expect it will change. Eventually we’ll move away from the KJV. However it will be somewhat painful and I bet it won’t happen until you get the majority of the 12 having grown up in the 90’s.
However already there are changes. It really is much rarer today to hear people caring about pseudo-elizabethan language than it was in the 90’s.
Comment by Clark — September 23, 2011 @ 10:16 am
I was assigned to speak on this topic a number of years ago (maybe 5 or 6) in a ward where most members were not college-grads but were blue collar laborers.
I taught the principle, including that we really want to speak to our Father in Heaven in language that is reverent and respectful. I pointed out that in some languages (like Spanish and German), that meant using familiar language, and that in other languages (like Japanese) it meant using language that was highly honorific. I shared that in the church we commonly use Thee, Thou and Thine (as Elder Oaks explained), and recommended that the appropriate place to learn and practice this was in our homes (implying that we ought to refrain from public correction).
Your title says it all to me.
Comment by Paul — September 23, 2011 @ 11:53 am
Clark- If we pray that way because we think *they* prayed that way, we’re misunderstanding the history of usage of the pronouns. Plus, in many ways, by the time the KJV was published, the language was already archaic because it was based on Tyndale (where possible.)
People who read the KJV when it came out pronounced the verb-final -eth as -s just like we do today, for example, and pronoun usage shifted. You can see examples of ambiguous pronoun shifting in Shakespeare, as well as insulting use.
In other words, when GA’s make vague historical appeal, they usually get the history wrong.
Comment by Ben S — September 25, 2011 @ 2:50 pm
Face it, people use “thees” and “thous” in order to come off sounding spiritual and religious. To those of us who have been cured of such pretentious nonsense, it sounds ridiculous.
Comment by bill long — September 28, 2011 @ 1:24 pm
bill long,
I don’t think it’s pretentious or that it sounds ridiculous most of the time. Now are there some people who have a talent for embellishing it to look good, absolutely. But I don’t think it is something that needs to be thrown away just because it is pretentious with some people.
I guess I just take it as an attempt to help us adjust ourselves or focus ourselves to make prayer more meaningful and set apart from other casual interactions. If there is a rational reason that I can see (having time to think about it since my previous post) it’s that it’s most likely for us rather than for a God who requires special language to hear and answer prayers.
Ben S,
We Mormons have a knack for taking advice and turning it into a commandment (and consequently a convenient litmus test of faith). And once we’ve converted into a commandment, we go to extraordinary lengths to justify and authenticate our rationale for needing and keeping it as a commandment.
Comment by Riley — September 28, 2011 @ 10:25 pm